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The envoCAST
The envoCAST

Episode 6 · 1 month ago

envoCAST | Claudia Gwinnutt | Founder of Circla

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

For this episode of the envoCAST, we’re joined by Claudia Gwinnutt, who quit a successful career in banking to help the beauty industry move away from single-use packaging. She founded Circla to provide sustainable and refillable beauty products to Londoners and took the time to speak to our Sales Associate Regan Callender about circularity, beauty and everything in between.

Hello and welcome to envo perhaps V podcast entitled vocast. My name is Regan. I we can calendar. I am a sales associates within the business, looking after our material sales in the UK, areas of Europe and then areas of South America as well. Today I'm pleased to be joined with cloudio Gwinnett, who is the founder and CEO of circular, which is a sustainable company based in based in London, founded in two thousand and nineteen, who focus on the reuse of packaging within the cosmetics industry, hoping to prevent single use packaging and embrace the secular economy. High Claudia, hi, thank you so much for inviting me on. I'm really excited to yeah, I had to get to chat with you. Fantastic. Thank you very much. Yes, so the plan for today, what I thought we would discuss and what I thought we would take our listeners through is a bit of a background on the circular economy. I know that this is something which circular has based itself around. It's something which we're very fond of MVOPAP as well, looking to sort of inspire young people, but also people globally, to embrace sustainability and to just think about how the how they use of various different products and, because mesics in especially for yourself, the effects that that has on the planet and see if we can be promoting sustainability at the same time. So, in your own words, if you just like to give a brief introduction of the secular economy and circular that would be fantastic. Yeah, amazing. So I guess if we if we look at kind of getting a kind of a simple understanding of the circular economy, I guess it's based on the principle that, you know, we as a you know, is it as an entire you know, populate global population. You know, we produce, you know, an enormous amount of waste and a lot of this comes predominantly, the way that we look at circular economy is generally from kind of single use and packaging, so things that you kind of use once and we throw away and actually that packaging itself is, you know, incredibly valuable. You know, when you look at something like plastic, which can, you know, last for thousands and thousands of years, it just feels it odd with how we're kind of using products to like the kind of throwaway culture we have and what the circular economy looks at, and it's not just that packaging, it's how do we keep those materials that were obviously, you know, making? How do we keep them in the system for longer so that we kind of expand their life cycle so instead of it literally just you know, if you think of a plastic water bottle, you know it's getting made from fossil fuels, it's getting filled with water, someone buys it from a shop and kind of throws it in the bin. The idea and circular economy is you know, and it can look around that whole life cycle. The bit that we you tend...

...to focus on is that reuse bit, but it looks at you know, it can look right from the materials is how do we already use what we already have and keep that in circulation for longer? And the idea behind that is, and I guess why it's a kind of like an evolution, I guess from recycling, is because ultimately we are just producing too much for like a recycling system, you know, to handle, or even you don't. We just don't have the infrastructure and therefore actually what the circular economy promotes is, you know, let's change the way that we consume good so that we're not so heavy reliant, you know, on recycling and, you know, we reduce the amount of waste that we see, you know, on the planet, particularly in landfills. You know, I'm sure a lot of people here, some of watch blue Patternet and seeing the kind of environmental impact that it's that it's having. So that bounds the kind of, you know, the founding principles of circular I gas, and so we're all about keeping packaging and reuse, particularly focused on the beauty industry, though we do now have kind of other products set and I guess we've actually taken inspiration from the past and from traditional models that used to exist. So the most famous one is the Milkman, which is obviously, you know, amazingly had a big resurgence and the last and kind of couple of years, and the idea exactly is it is that and, you know, you order from us and when you're finished and stead of what most people would do today, is just so your kind of shampoo bottle, you know. You know, in the Bin. We say don't put it in the Bin, put it in a circular Bin and we'll collect it and and wash it and kind of and we use it. And I think it's particularly important for bathroom waste because it actually has the lowest percentage that people recycle, and it's just because that bin is not we don't most people don't have a recycling bin and a landfill bin in their bathroom. We just have one. So kind of out of like ease, we just tend to just all throw it away, you know, when we take the bins up. So it's you know, it was probably even more important to be looking at buffroom waste. Absolutely absolutely is, but thank you. Thanks about introduction. That's something which absolutely an mbopap as a focus for us as well, using looking at the end of life and the reuse in in Circulus case, but also looking at squeezing, for us, at squeezing all of the carbon emissions and and squeezing out the fossil few fuel usage throughout that whole process cycle. So it's really interesting to to be able to use and recycled material or material which is a byproduct of something else, is in is in our case. I did want to touch upon one thing you mentioned, which was that there's a there's a huge amount of plastic which is produced each year and one thing which we look to look to educate our customers, but ors our clients and partners with is I think they're roughly three hundred and fifty million tons of plastic produced each year and something like nine percent of that does it is actually successfully recycled. So we're talking really, really stall margins on there and the amount of sort of recyclability of those of those plastic models which...

...which do get turfed out. Another point I thought thought was really interesting with the comparison made to the Milkman. I think that's something which can potentially seem slightly outdated now. Is that it is that sort of an inspiration of circulars? That what inspired you to establish the brand, or does it stem from something else? Yeah, I think I mean it sends from definitely that, because I actually whilst the reason the Milkman stopped was because, you know, you know, large supermarkets kind of came about and that's was seemed as more convenient. But actually, in today's and I guess the the missing bit that happened then was that we didn't have shopping online necessarily, so people would kind of go and do like you know, this is the times when like the big test go exp you know, superstores, and people would go to one place to get everything, because our lives are becoming much busier that the idea of getting your milk delivered and then going to the butcher and all those kind of there's the kind of decline in like, let's say, small independent shopping. But what we didn't have at that time was obviously, you know, the amount of people that we see shopping online now. So actually, the Milkman model from a kind of the way we consume and want our goods delivered and and the moves a bit of the inconvenient that I see, you know, for other you know that other refilm models, and I guess when I what inspired me to kind of start circular and the way that we built the model was today, was because I inherently believe that, you know, whilst we, a lot of us, will say that we, you know, we care about sustainability and I genuinely do believe that. You know, all evidence shows that kind of convenience, quality and price still massively trump a consumers decision. And therefore, you know what I make my team do and what we do constantly is looking at like, you know, yes, we want to lead and we're a purpose driven business, but the only way we're going to go mainstream is if we truly are incredibly consumer centric on right. Well, what stopping someone from switching to refills? Like, how does someone buy their beauty today? How do we emulate that customer journey in how do we make it so it becomes more affordable? How do we ensure and how do we able to communicate that the quality of the products that we sell is just as good as what you might find and boots? Now we're obviously that's a journey and that's you know, that's a lot to kind of get right, but that is always why, for me, as a founding principle, I the biggest thing for us is to make it, as I guess, convenient as possible, and it's literally like we will deliver the product you reorder, will collect your empties, there is nothing you need to do. There's no going to the post office to ship something back, there's no remembering your jars to the refill store, and it's also why, for example, we remove things like subscriptions, anything like that, because we just want to be a...

...go to place for people to buy really cool, high quality, planet positive brand that you can meet film and make it as easy as that. So that's yeah, but then we've definitely been called the not going to be to a lot. And then I don't mind the analogy. I think it's yeah, I like it definitely hasn't a quirk to it. I think it's really interesting, interesting topic to pick up on actually, because although, and I'm of the same sort of school of thoughts as yourself, I do think that there is an inherent desire for people to or from people to move toward sustainable products, but it's making them consumer friendly and it's we understand that there's potentially, and I think we're all guilty of this, an inherent laziness of of people with recycling, etc. And I think you picked up on that when you mentioned the sort of bathroom bin which I think we're all guilty having having thrown an old champoo bottle or cosmetics bottle in there. At envopapus, the our our products are all recyclable and I think something which benefits benefit's our brand is having that curbside recyclability as well. I think if you're you have to go even down the road to a slightly different recycling plants or put it in an extra bin. That's an extra step which can act to discourage people. So I think I think it's great that secular focuses towards making it consumer friendly but also having that ease to to embrace and use, like you say, those planet positive brands and have an have the benefit that comes with it. So obviously circle circles London based at the moment. Do you see, I guess, sort of too double edged question. Do you see the circular economy is being scalable and being able to reduce and potentially even replace single use packaging within both the UK, so so scalable outside of London, but also across different industries? Is is something that you've considered? Yeah, so I think you know two bits to that as a kind of answer, I guess the first bit, I think like our model, you know, like you know, I could talk about it. You know there is scalability in it, but I think what you have to remember is that there's no like what. Consumers don't all shop the same and like depending on your consumer habits where you live. So I think when I look at circle and this is why I never, even when I'm talking to invest is, I never think of like what our competitors are doing, you might be doing different models, as like a threat Beicause, you know, I just see it as these are different models that exist because there are different type of consumers that will want to shop in a different way. And now, obviously my goal is to get them to shop with such and prove it might work. But for example, for someone it might just be better they go to a reful shop. So and...

...that's great. Like you know, my my goal is is a is greater than and it's the change of consumer behavior and the way we consumed it over just being the only model. And I think it's by having this kind of interconnected system around enabling reful so that you could do it in store, you could have it delivered to your home, you could have collection points, you know, in kind of like sent and harbs. I think it's creating that that kind of ecosystem. That's what's needed to really kind of, you know, drive the change, and that's, you know, when I talk about our vision and we're just kind of going through invent run fundraising at the moment. That's how I see circler growing is we become. Our model will evolve into different shapes to enable I we always stay focused particularly on beauty, but our model will evolve in different ways to enable different types of customers to shop with us, and that might be you can return in store, you might be able to shop by a retail partner, and to enable that, I think the circular economy in terms of other, you know, other industries. I think that's one of the most inspiring things, is seeing like how how it's, how the industries are, you know, are using it. So, for example, about a month ago we actually ran a pop up and bought a Bela Road and we brought together that forty other businesses who are working in this space and they covered all sorts of industries. You know, they were fashion there. You know, people making there's one company called Hermit London. She takes, you know, luxury bedling in from hotels turns it into pajamas. You know, amazing. You know, deb's demonstration of like in the fashion industry. We had an evening with Dada drop, who do reusable take away. We had beer draft drop there, who do reusable beer and wine delivered to your home like there is. There are so many. It's I think it's the bit that whenever I feel a bit like, Oh God, we're up, there's massive uphill battle because the challenge is huge and the urgency is even greater in my mind. But I do find the level of innovation and how applicable the model is and the thinking behind it to so many different industries, like, quite frankly, really inspiring and I think that's what's so great about it is that it can be applied, you know, to say, many different industries, and it is. It most probably just needs a huge amount of investment. Definitely, definitely, how I completely agree. I think, as an emerging technology, which which it is, that investments crucial. It's also spreading spreading the word, getting the word out there, making people aware that the they have this opportunity and they have different options. There are different shopping options. We need to make it consumer focus and I think that's something which will end up applies as a business is as well as circular. It's also really interesting and I think important for a US growing brands...

...and growing sustainable businesses and companies to look at it as a collective and to look at it that there's enough space in the market and there's enough opportunity for collaboration and cooperation that there's we're not all fighting over the same pie. We can we can have a slice each and I think that's something where we can help each other to grow. We can spread awareness and we can look to optimize how people how people use packaging. One one thing we we do is we look to reduce carbon footprints of packaging. So where possible we'll move from using a card box which is made from our agricultural waste material to using a mailer that then takes up less space. And so it's it's not necessarily just looking to sell as much product or to capture as much of the market as you can, but to optimize, and I think that's something really interesting about about circler which, which obviously use, sort of embrace as well and the bought so that's intastic. So on with with regards to circle as plans in the near future. Do Do you see circle scaling up to to be available outside of London? I know that it's it is sort of being closed into London at the moment and if so, how do you see that process to be carried out? Yeah, so we're and we're looking at a few different options and I guess with us we always we also want to make sure that whatever we do is still like it's not creating a problem elsewhere. So, you know, obviously our big goal is around reusable packaging, but if you're not careful, you can quite quickly start, you know, really increasing your emissions if you're not looking at what how your models run, or increasing water. So the logistics and the operations that you sit behind a refilm model you have to pay I think, well, we pay quite close attention to make sure we're not just shifting. It's like great, you're saving all this packaging, but like you're creating another problem here, and I think that's you know, that's a bit of a learning curve, but that's also to kind of always bring yourself back to that like, you know, is this really making and you know, impact and kind of testing the challenging ourselves on that. But terms of your questions around scale, there are a few models that were looking at the moment. Like by the end of next year we definitely want to have launched the circlear way that you see it in London in other cities around the UK. Because I think a lot of the infrastructure, particularly around you know, last mile kind of delivery companies, is expanding and that's something we heavily rely on. I didn't the other route that we're exploring at the moment is understanding how we can work with retailers. So, for example, a big challenge we see with re feel shops, particularly for a large retailer, is that they normally have gone down the route where you fill in store. So you know that sort of refill shop does. That's the model. Test go and Waitrou you know, not test gootory as they're and waitrose have done. And the problem with that from a retailers perspective is obviously you've got...

...to clean that stand and it also takes up an a normous amount of floor space, which makes it kind of uneconomical. And for a consumer, if you've not brought your empty packaging, you're kind of not able to be included, let's say, because the packaging is yours. So a model we're looking exploring at the moment is that you have a kind of all the pre filled products on like a circlar stand and the shop someone can buy. Then there's a kind of smart collection point and that you know, even if you come back the next you know, three weeks time you're a punch my body wash, but you know name I forgot my kind of empty mottel. It doesn't matter because you could still buy new and the next time you just bring back to empty and they're both getting reused. So that's definitely something that we're looking at and I think that really enables US toll to drive our model outside of Metropolitan Areas because obviously the consumer shopping habits are just different. Like people do tend to go and do you know, a bigger store, you know, bigger shop and shop potentially less online as well. So that's definitely something we're looking at. The other thing we've been looking at, which it's more I'm not sure, like what the conversion will be like. We have a really, really high refeel request rate, which means like how many people do actually refill and return the empties? And when I don't the other model we looking at is to get outside to the rest of the UK. Could people just return and send it by a post? Now that might work, as long as we say you have to collect five empties before you return it to us, because you know, someone just sending a bottle back is most probably like going all over the country. You know is not going to work. The other big challenge we have is that at the moment our packaging is in glass. So, like start, you start shipping that over the country, you need extra packaging to package it. So we are exploring those two models. I have a bigger preference for model one. Some of my team have a bigger preference for a model to but yeah, we're kind of looking at them and both understanding like how they could work. One is more ignomical to us. One I think makes more sense from a consumer sustainability perspective. So yeah, it's it's interesting and it's you know, it's a lot. Will you know. I'm I hope that we'll get some pilots out there soon to kind of test it absolutely well. It's great to it's great toy that there are a couple of models which which you considering. I think I think it's it's important to look at the the carbon footprint, obviously that that sort of works its way into the sustainability message and I think that's that's an important aspect. You mentioned if goods being shipped or if the replacement bosses are empty bottles of being shipped from abroad. Let's let's build those up to a small package which could then be make it worthwhile, the carbon footprints, etc. Etc.

I mean kind of we've had a few conversations now. I think that would be a collaboration that Denver Path would definitely be interested in. Obviously, a day we're looking to sort of spread our wings and packaging in Europe and globally. So, as say, if there's a there's a collaboration of the Judity, I'm sure that myself, the team and calcula ill CEO, the would be very interested. So absolutely so. Obviously, with with with everything, there are there's some drawbacks. So what? What's what are the challenges the circular of facing at the moment? And one are the challenges in the main issues you see with the circular economy from your experience? Yeah, I think you know. The biggest one is is just driving adoption. And you know we are small and you know you with a consumer facing business. You need, to be honest, hundreds of bounds of pounds from a marketing budget, you know. So one of it is, like it's just being able to get your message out there. And the reason why it's more challenging, I think, and this is the example I always use as because if you just launched a shoe company, for example, you're not really teaching people how to wear a shoe. You just telling them this shoe is better than that shoe because is of this right. But with circular what you're actually trying to do is to say this is how you're going to now consume goods, and you could be. For the last thirty years you've not done that, and we're trying to tell you why the products that we stop from the brands that we stock are better. And those are quite two big behavioral changes and a lot of education and therefore that needs, you know, a lot of with, you know, team power and, you know, an investment to be able to kind of cut through, because someone's just going to be like, okay, that's great, but like, I could just go to boots like you really like. How do I really get that Hook? So I you know, that is our big challenge. Like, the way I do look at it around any of this is that I think if you are starting a company like this working in the space, you have to be in it for the long term, like this is not a business you launch and in a year you're like, you know, turning seven digits. Right, this is this is, you know, huge investment into like the future of the way that we're going to, you know, of changing how, you know, we consume products, and therefore it is was probably a bit of a slower bird, but, you know, I think, like, you know, I've been doing this now, you know, for a while and like I still have the same belief and passion, you know, in it and kind of the same commitment despite like how challenging, you know, it can be. And I think, you know, we've just had to, you know,...

...keep adapting, keep trying things, you know, being as Nimble as possible, you know, maximizing the resources that we have and constantly just thinking outside of the box, and I think that's what you've got to do. Like we've now just launched, I think, out of yesterday, a partnership with an Interior Design Company, and people are like what, how does that work, and it's like we actually they're redoing up people's homes. A perfect gift for those people to get into their new home is like here's a new like gorgeous hand washing, hand so from hand washing notion from circular you know, and how do we kind of create those kind of partnerships? And that's, you know, you just got to yeah, you've got to kind of keep thinking, you know, out of the box and kind of coming up with fresh ideas to kind of reach customers and try and get the products and the service into their hands as quickly as possible. Definitely, definitely not agree and I think, I think absolutely that with a with a new technology, with a the sort of emerging merging products and trying to break into the market, there's going to always be a lot of a lot of scrutiny and, as you mentioned, it's a learning experience for the consumer and that's something where we really need to be as as sure of our technology is, sure of that change in consumer behavior and that change in shopping or that change and how we work with packaging or or how we sort of use our cosmetic products. Ensued that well, first of all, that we're one hundred percent behind it and we're constantly looking at ways to where we can optimize that, but also with the it has that potential and you mentioned that you have to be in it for the long run. I think that is the case, because there are those challenges. So I think it's great that you're aware of those. I think it's great that the deviously those have been identified. But on the bright side, I think a lot of young people are changing habits. I think new, new quirks and new new ways of doing things has become a lot more popular with the advent of Tiptock and the advent of social media, and everyone's looking for something which is slightly quirky and that things, once they catch, catch on and once, once it clicks, it can then snowball. So I think with in your case, we were right around the corner from people embracing the idea really coming to coming to the market and hopefully seeing that snowball effects. And when we look at when we look at how people interact with packaging, and I guess from a from a Layman's perspective, I'd like to ask you how what people can be doing and and sort of on a real basic level, what advice you'd give to people wanting to move away from single use packaging but maybe not knowing how or not knowing what's out there? How would how would you advise people to make that shift, move from single...

...use plastic packaging to to sort of embracing the circular economy in the method they can. Yeah, I mean, great question. I think the first thing I would always say is, like the the the the amount of change and, you know, things that could be done is huge. That my first advice to anyone like being like right, I want to make some changes is, you know, it's a bit like a diet or in your fitness routine. Like if you think that you like only ever got an out of better than nine am and now you're going to get out at zero am, start going to the gym five days a week, the chances are you're going to fail. So when I when I ever, you know, people ask like, you know, like I want to make sustainable swaps, I always think start with something that like can be sustainable into your lifestyle, if that makes sense. And when I mean by that is that you can actually easily Redo it, you know, and so that it becomes just, you know, part of your routine and like start kind of small. You know. I think that the biggest thing that I still you know, it absolutely drives me mad is, you know, the amount of packaging you see, you know, still in the supermarket. I think, you know, looking out for things and trying to buy things that are, you know, unpackaged as much as possible. And I realize you can't always do that in a big supermarket, but where you can, you know, do it, like even if it's a case of just buying three onions loose rather than the ones that come in that you know, stringy plastic thing, and I think just, you know, make just trying to be more conscious and aware as you do kind of move around, you know, you know, deeper market. I think the other ones. To me, I like things that go into your, you know, your daily life, like some of the like when my girlfriends, let's say, always ask me, it's like right, get rid of face wipes and, you know, swap to like reasonable face class. It's, you know, it's one. It's actually better for your skin, but to it's like such an easy, you know, it's such an easy swat to kind of do. I think the other thing is around with packaging is that, unfortunately, there is so much like kind of greenwashing and confusing that comes, you know, out as well. So there's recently been so much stuff around. Well, this bok bottle is, you know, recycled and this bottle is, you know, bioplastic and, at the end of the day, unfortune, particularly when it comes to plastics. You know this actually, unless you're really changing the behavior around it from being single use. So if you think of like an everyon water bottle, yes, it's great and it is actually a step in the right direction, and I won't bash these companies for that, that they're using recycled plastic, because at least it's a material that's already in the world and we're not extracting more fossil fuels. But the behavior change it needs to happen is not that. The behavior change needs to happen is that we stopped buying water in a bottle that we throw away five minutes later, you know. So these are all the quite simple things that I do. You know, water bottle on the go, coffee cart. You know, obviously look at and you know obviously love to come and...

...look at Sir claim and makes whats, whether it's in your home or, you know, in your bathroom. But yeah, and I think I think the other big going for me is is food packaging, you know, on the go. It's like probably my biggest challenge it's one that I find really, really difficult. So I feel sympathy with everyone. But yeah, I really try and minimize the amount of times I'm eating my lunch on the go to avoid the amount of packaging that is wasted because generally also gets thrown and a kind of street bin and that's often definitely not going to get kind of you know be cycled. But I oh, yeah, we have a firm value at Saclo, which is it's about a million, you know, millions of people doing something over a few people doing everything, and that's our cool belief. So, you know, make one swap like, for example, with us. I think our headline is if everyone changed their hand wash with each prevent over a thousand bottles in our lifetime going to landfill. Like that's just hand washed, and I think that's the mentality, that the kind of positive mentality we like to promote, rather than being at doom and gloom and people just feeling kind of, know, apathetic to it in the end. Definitely, I think. I think people need to be inspired and people there has to be some sort of positivity. We can't. You mentioned blue planets earlier and I think it's sometimes it can seem quite overwhelming for people and the analogy use was was great. If you if you drastically change your your sort of diary, in your your way of doing things to something which is unsustainable for yourself or too much of a change, I think you've always revert reserve. Sorry, but back to type. But I think also it's it is great to really important to have that positivity and for us to be able to inspire, and for yourself especially, but I think it's nice to have a touch of guilt as well. So with the with the with the plastic bottle example, it's very easy, and I know I know all of us have done it, to go to a supermarket rab a meal, deal with that. Usually comes a comes a drink, whether it's a coke or bottle of Evan or something different. I think it's very easy to do that each day and people have become conscious of that. So now they will have a reasonable water bottle which they're going from home. When you forget it, it's then that little bit of guilt which, when you don't have to go to a supermarket buy another one or look to more as it is at the moment. But what we're hoping to change the more conventional sort of method of going in shopping and for consumers. And it's good to get to have that little bit of guilt which then gives you a bit of a kick towards going going back after work thinking, right, what am I going to do differently tomorrow?...

I'm going to make sure that my water bottles there so I don't need to buy another one. So I think it's really important to be positive and to have that positivity and for it to seem achievable and attainable as a goal, but also it's nice to have a little bit of accountability every now and then so that so that you get that little kick. Okay, I also I think there's so many great brands and have now launched like really beautiful, reasonable products, like so we actually a partnered with ocean bottle and like I can I'm looking at my team's desk now and I like every single one, every one of us has them, and there's like actually like it looks nice and like, you know, it's not like some gross you know, it's really practical. And then I remember I always used to have an issue as my reasonable Coffee Cup because as a girl with a handbag like I found myself literally looking like the bad lady when I left the House because I have like my water bottle, my tin care, a Coffee Cup, my lunch, and I was like this is just so ridiculous, as I like we've now we actually work. We did like a giveaway with them a couple of months to go and I'd found them and they're a coffee theseable Coffee Cup and it likes squidges down so like, particularly for people on the go, like in your handbag. It like, you know, it just squidges down and it becomes really small compared to like a key cup, which is obviously quite big. And this thing like always leaks and I didn't like leaking in my bag. And those are the excuses that I think as a brand, we forget that that's a customer, a customers telling themselves to talk themselves out of it, and you have to be like so honest with yourself as a brand, because that is actually what a customers thinking. It's like this takes up too much space, it's going to leak in my bag, and those are all the reason it's an inconvenience and it's going to be dirty, as it going to smell like, how do you look at all of that to make reuse seem like a great option? And I think that's design, you know, comes you know, really comes into you know, into play, and it says something I look at when I spy stuff. Definitely, definitely. Yeah, it's really important. I think we always need to be slightly ahead of the cave, sort of working, working on what's what's going to be the next trend, how we can keep up with that chanting, that sustainable message kind of. I'd really like to thank you for a few time this afternoon and it's been a great insight. Hopefully I listeners will have learned some bit more about yourself as a see and founder, but also as on more personal level, and Leve a lot about certain the brand as well. Before we go, I would just like to ask you, for inevitably those who will go on to surpas website and will be interested, do you have maybe a specific planet positive brand or a specific cosmetic product from your range which you'd really encourage people to buy or you think it's great? Is there one that you would you would encourage people towards? Yeah, I mean so it's really hard to...

...pick one, but I will go for two different brands. So the first one is up circle and like as a brand and total they're just incredible because all the ingredients are circlear in themselves, because they always use ingredients left over from the food industry, and I percially think their coffee facecrub is outstanding. The second round I would recommend and their product is evolved beauty. They have a cleansing melt which is our top selling product. We could never restock it quick enough again. They're then May, just outside of London and Hertfordshire, and they're brand is just like like so inspiring to me for how they look at sustainability in the depths that they go to. So, yeah, those would be my two products. But we also have like a start to set bundle, which is like an easy way to kind of pick five like do let us do the thinking for your kind of five products that we think kind of get you on your way to kind of moving your home in your bathroom and you're yeah, you're cleaning routine to circular. Fantastic. Well, there are a few options for people to take a look at. I'll I'll be taking a look at it myself. So one will kind of thank you very much for your time this afternoon. It's been it's been great to chat and I look forward to working on some some packaging. Collaboration suit perfect cool. Thank you so much for having me and yeah, yeah, definitely let's chat. See thanks, loud it.

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